Os Wars

[TtuEd]

ja pravi sp2 na windowsu xp ni ne koristim nego onu poslednju stabilnu betu sp2

ajoj! stabilna beta verzija?? odakle izviru takve dezinformacije??

 

podrzavam sasvim xp ili windows 2003 kada je u pitanju 64-itni rad a nekako ipak radije instaliram nt4 i windows 2000

da, i mene i dalje vishe privlachi windows 2000. i dan danas je skroz upotrebljiv za sve vrste poslova i zabave (naravno, uz instalirani service pack 4). ali windows server 2003 enterprise je ubedljivo najbolji ms-ov operativni sistem IKADA. sirova moc :-), sigurnost i stabilnost, skoro kao linux... za cetvorocifrenu sumu dolara :-)

 

na stranu sto su windows 2000 kodirali isti ljudi kao i windows 9x a xp oni koji su kodirali nt4 uglavnom

hm... windows 2000 je samo nesto komercialniji naziv za windows nt 5.0, a njegov naslednik windows xp je nista drugo do windows nt 5.2. pogadjas, vista je nt 6.0 :-)

[Dersu Uzala]

...a njegov naslednik windows xp je nista drugo do windows nt 5.2. pogadjas, vista je nt 6.0 :-)

 

AJ' da ne bude sad da ti siris dezinformacije , Windows XP je NT 5.1 . Nema gu taj NT 5.2 more.

 

[RedOrange981]

windows 2000 je uveo dosta novotarija, jedino ostaje pitanje sta je isplativije nekom ko hoce da umrezi vise stotina racunara... razocarao sam se u vistu cim sam cuo da ima neki bag kada se slusa muzika a kompjuter je umrezen, to kao da je nesto najsmesnije sto sam cuo a virusi su se vec pojavili.

[Господин Граул]

E, jel zna neko kako kako se podeshava midi u Linuxu. Instalirao sam Guitar Pro , a midi zvuk mi ne radi iako moze da se radi sa notama i tako to , al sve bez zvuka....?

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

Pogledaj ovde

 

http://en.opensuse.org/MIDI

 

http://en.opensuse.org/TiMidity

 

Jeste da je za SUSE ali bi trebalo da je validno i za druge distroe

Trebace ti i neki kvalitetniji soundfont za tvoju zvucnu koje treba da ucitas-ja sam ih dobio npr uz moj SB Audigy na cd-u

 

[TtuEd]

AJ' da ne bude sad da ti siris dezinformacije , Windows XP je NT 5.1 . Nema gu taj NT 5.2 more.

lapsus windows server 2003 je nt 5.2

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

ali windows server 2003 enterprise je ubedljivo najbolji ms-ov operativni sistem IKADA. sirova moc :-), sigurnost i stabilnost, skoro kao linux... za cetvorocifrenu sumu dolara :-)

 

A *BSD i linux ne kostaju nista,a nude mozda i vise

Tek da ne spominjem Solaris(fantazija od OS-a)koji je od skora takodje besplatan i pored koga bilo koji Win deluje kao neslana sala

A tek ce da bude veselje kada dobije novi ZFS

Edited November 10, 2007 by Full_Metal_Yakuza

[RedOrange981]

meni se svidjaju stari dobri linuxi kao sto je red hat, gotov proizvod na dvd-u a ne neka ko zna koja po redu kineska verzija linuxa za jeftine racunare. za sada cekam finalan kde 3 na nekoj od distribucija.

[Dersu Uzala]

A *BSD i linux ne kostaju nista,a nude mozda i vise

Tek da ne spominjem Solaris(fantazija od OS-a)koji je od skora takodje besplatan i pored koga bilo koji Win deluje kao neslana sala

A tek ce da bude veselje kada dobije novi ZFS

 

Opet ti. Koje je tvoje merilo superiornog OS-a, daj da cujemo vec jednom? Lako je tupiti bolje je ovo ili ono. Daj da cujemo to tvoje famozno merilo pa da merimo.

 

[Dawn Daemon]

meni se svidjaju stari dobri linuxi kao sto je red hat, gotov proizvod na dvd-u a ne neka ko zna koja po redu kineska verzija linuxa za jeftine racunare. za sada cekam finalan kde 3 na nekoj od distribucija.

Misliš finalan KDE 4.o?

 

Samo nemoj previše da se nadaš... KDE 4.o će biti 'all fancy and stuff', ali je daleko od završenog, i (za sada) je daleko od stabilnog. 4.1 će biti ono šta svi čekaju. U tome prvenstveno mislim na Plazmu i na KWin koji su još uvek pod intezivnim razvojem za razliku od većine ostalih programa koji su u polishing fazi.

 

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

Opet ti. Koje je tvoje merilo superiornog OS-a, daj da cujemo vec jednom? Lako je tupiti bolje je ovo ili ono. Daj da cujemo to tvoje famozno merilo pa da merimo.

 

O izvini-ja mislim da ne bi trebao uopste da se raspravljam sa neospornim autoritetom ovde koji pise kodove od milion dolara

Mislio sam na serversku primenu,a bio bi Solaris i dobar desktop samo da hoce neko da ga pogura s obzirom da ima ABI i backward compatibillity-izmedju ostalog

A sto se tice poredjenja-ja mislim da je zaista smesno da poredimo ZFS i NTFS kada su pitanju fajlsistemi-iz prostog razloga sto ne mogu da se porede uopste u korist ovog prvog

Nego je'l ima Windoza virtuelizaciju procesa te ZFS kontejnere i self-repair,te administratorse alatke koje pazi sad mogu da ukinu root nalog u slucaju nuzde-naravno da nema niti ce ikad imati-ipak je to MS (polu)proizvod

 

Misliš finalan KDE 4.o?

 

Samo nemoj previše da se nadaš... KDE 4.o će biti 'all fancy and stuff', ali je daleko od završenog, i (za sada) je daleko od stabilnog. 4.1 će biti ono šta svi čekaju. U tome prvenstveno mislim na Plazmu i na KWin koji su još uvek pod intezivnim razvojem za razliku od većine ostalih programa koji su u polishing fazi.

 

Upravo-smatram da nikako ne trea trcati na 4.0 verziju vec sacekati i kasnije preci na neku podverziju kada se situacija malo sredi-inace posto pored Debiana 4.0 imam instaliran i SUSE 10.3 videh neke delove novog KDE-a-recimo novi krdc izgleda meni licno super

Edited November 11, 2007 by Full_Metal_Yakuza

[Dawn Daemon]

Upravo-smatram da nikako ne trea trcati na 4.0 verziju vec sacekati i kasnije preci na neku podverziju kada se situacija malo sredi-inace posto pored Debiana 4.0 imam instaliran i SUSE 10.3 videh neke delove novog KDE-a-recimo novi krdc izgleda meni licno super

Tako nešto, samo što sam ja u fazi izmedju. Sve što radi solidno od KDE4.o, koristim (već mesecima) i koristiću nadalje. Evo, po meni, trenutnog stanja (sveže sa SVN-a):

- dolphin - PR ("production ready") - pa ako vam se svidja, navalite

- konqueror - potpuno s*eban za sada...

- okular - PR odavno

- kwin - bez kompozitnih efekata dovoljno dobar... sa njima malo nestabilan, ali upotrebljiv

- plazma - ovde ne znam šta da kažem. Moguće da mi je rezonovanje pomućeno "ličnim emocijama"... ali plazma je baš odrasla (sa programerske strane - još samo da odraste sa korisničke...)

- kontact (kmail...) - previše rizika da bih ga sada unapredio da bude podrazumevan. Sve je stabilniji, ali mail i kontakti su mi previše važni da bih se igrao sa njima

- konsole - PR - prevaljen veliki put od 3.x i dosta lepo radi.

od ostalih paketa poput kdegames, nekih sistemskih alatki... većinom su zreli i bolji programi od 3.x serije, tako da i tu leži moja preporuka.

 

[imaginos]

Mislio sam na serversku primenu,

mislim da je malo vreme da se batali ta fama o linuxu kao superiornom serverskom os-u.

daj ti bato neke statistike, koliko firmi koristi linux a koliko win servere pa da vidimo. na primer, licno sam video da kompletan sistem EDB-a radi pod win-om + oracle. daj neke ozbiljne firme, berze (cenim da sysadmini berzi i te kako moraju da znaju sta je superiorno ) i slicno, a ne ovako "pricam ti pricu". trziste je najbolji pokazatelj kvaliteta kad je softver u pitanju.

 

a bio bi Solaris i dobar desktop samo da hoce neko da ga pogura

nema tu sta da se "pogura" - proizvod i ono sto ga okruzuje (sw i alati za razvoj) su ono sto gura neki os.

 

----

 

linux zajednica treba da prestane sa blacenjem windowsa i bezuspesnim pokusajima da se "preotme" taj deo trzista od m$-a. narocito mi je zao sto se gomila energije rasipa bez ikakve potrebe samo zato sto ne postoje nikakvi standardi u svetu linuxa, a standardi su ono na sta korisnici mogu da se oslone i ono sto je bitno. takodje ta "sloboda" i slicno su najveci neprijatelji napretka linuxa - jer je sloboda postala anarhija, svako radi sta misli i tako jedni od drugih preuzimaju korisnike, umesto da postoji jedno centralne mesto odakle se vuku konci (sto pametnije). za to vreme windows melje napred, alati za RAD nikad bolji, treba ti mesec dana da na win platformi razvijes program koji bi pod linuxom pisao skoro "odozdo" troseci silno vreme, itd, itd...

 

ako iko ikad uspe da zapreti ozbiljno windowsu mislim da ce to biti mac OS X (nadam se da ce jednog dana odluciti da ga prodaju samo kao sw bez "gvodzja", i to za neke manje pare ). licno bih voleo da se to desi, naravno. mislim da je konkurencija jako zdrava stvar a fakat je da m$ nema pravu konkurenciju danas na polju os-a...

[Dersu Uzala]

O izvini-ja mislim da ne bi trebao uopste da se raspravljam sa neospornim autoritetom ovde koji pise kodove od milion dolara

 

Simpaticno. Mozes, naravno, samo argumentovano i profesionalno.

 

 

Mislio sam na serversku primenu,a bio bi Solaris i dobar desktop samo da hoce neko da ga pogura s obzirom da ima ABI i backward compatibillity-izmedju ostalog

A sto se tice poredjenja-ja mislim da je zaista smesno da poredimo ZFS i NTFS kada su pitanju fajlsistemi-iz prostog razloga sto ne mogu da se porede uopste u korist ovog prvog

Nego je'l ima Windoza virtuelizaciju procesa te ZFS kontejnere i self-repair,te administratorse alatke koje pazi sad mogu da ukinu root nalog u slucaju nuzde-naravno da nema niti ce ikad imati-ipak je to MS (polu)proizvod

 

Niko ne spori da je Solaris odlican produkat, kao takav.

 

Sto se tice favorizovanja ZFS-a u odnosu na NTFS, prvo mi navedi prednosti ZFS-a. Iako je NTFS kreiran 1993 a ZFS 2004, karakteristike su im 99% iste. I performanse. NTFS trenutno nema 'ugradjen' storage pooling i to bi bilo to. Fina ideja, podrzavam je, trebace i to. Ubacice i MS to ako nadje za shodno. Ono sto je bitno je da NTFS nije hardcoded implementacija, na nivou OS-a, vec je specifikacija koja se non-stop nadgradjuje (postoje 4-5 verzija NTFS-a). Razliciti limiti su ubaceni u razlicite platforme, cak i u istoj generaciji OS-a (WinXP Home, Pro, W2K3 Server, pa jos 32/64 bitne verzije istih). Ti limiti su implementirani u samom NTFS drajveru a ne u OS-u. You supply a different driver and guess what. Veci fajl limit, volume limit a mozes da dodas i storage pooling ako znas kako. Limitiranje se desava iz prostog razloga sto se interno vrsi optimizacija pristupu resursima u samom OS-u, a svaki taj OS ima sustinski drukciju namenu kod krajnjeg korisnika. I ZFS vec ima razlicite hard-limite zavisno od implementacije. Ako vec hoces da poredis modernije fajl sisteme, probaj ZFS i WinFS (iako ovaj drugi sustinski da ne kazem tehnicki i nije 'pravi' fajl sistem, i dalje koristi modifikovani NTFS 'ispod' sebe).

 

Ono sto ti zoves virtualizacijom procesa, MS zove virtualizacija masine i postoje MS Virtual Server poodavno koji radi istu sljaku kao kontejneri kod Solarisa. Znaci virtualizujes na istom hardveru da l' sistemski da l' aplikativni softver, sta god hoces kako hoces. Kako rekoh, Sun to zove Process Virtualization technology, MS to zove Virtual Machine technology. Isto sranje drugo pakovanje. NTFS dakako ima i self-repair, stavise to je jedna od rak rana svih mega fajl sistema, puno vremena provode radeci self-repair i kojekakve ECC algoritme, zavodjenje zurnala (snapshots, da NTFS ima i to, mada su metadata snaphshots), pogotovu kod vecih voluma i sto su vise iskorisceni.

 

Naravno da moze da se ukine root (iliti njegov ekvivalent , posto Windows nema klasican root account, Administrator i Local System vrse tu duznost zajedno) u Windozu, bilo privremeno bilo da se potpuno izbrise. O, Mojsije.

 

Pitanja?

Edited November 12, 2007 by Dersu Uzala

[RedOrange981]

ja sam na nt4 koristio hpfs, steta sto nemam vise paragon parition manager 5.5...

Edited November 12, 2007 by Dionis6

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

@imaginos

 

Jeste,a reci ti meni bato sta pogoni vecinu web,mail i ostalih servera-da vidimo malo cifre

Apache,koliko znam oko 60% i to u 99% linux(Apache ima i za Windozu inace)a ima ga i po velikim firmama-sta mislis na kom trzistu zgrcu pare SUSE i RH,a odskora i Ubuntu-enterprise bese?

Pa upravo na tom polju je linux i najveci konkurent Windows-u

I naravno da je linux superioran kao serverski OS-za nisku cenu(tacnije nema je)mozes da dobijes pouzdan server koji ce ti sluziti isto kao Win 2003 ako ne i bolje

Inace,preporucujem ti da instaliras ekstenziju za FF koja se zove server spy i da pogledas iz prve ruke koliko je zastupljen ISS na www serverima-kada budes posle par dana u moru Apache indijanaca naleteo na tag MS-ISS javi mi se

A kada si vec pomenuo Oracle-najnovija verzija Oracle-a(11 cini mi se)je prvo izasla za linux,a za Windows se tek ocekuje

Toliko o zastupljenosti i trzisnom udelu....

 

linux zajednica treba da prestane sa blacenjem windowsa

 

Ma je li-a ja sam primetio jedan trend u poslednje vreme da svakog ko negativno prica o Windozi zaspu drljvem i kamenjem-cak i kada taj isti pokusa objektivno da dokaze zasto neke(mnoge )stvari u Windozi sucks(i pritom ne mislim na sebe)

 

i bezuspesnim pokusajima da se "preotme" taj deo trzista od m$-a. narocito mi je zao sto se gomila energije rasipa bez ikakve potrebe samo zato sto ne postoje nikakvi standardi u svetu linuxa, a standardi su ono na sta korisnici mogu da se oslone i ono sto je bitno. takodje ta "sloboda" i slicno su najveci neprijatelji napretka linuxa - jer je sloboda postala anarhija, svako radi sta misli i tako jedni od drugih preuzimaju korisnike,

 

Ajde sa oprostenjem nemoj da lupas-da nije bilo GPL licence linux danas ne bi bio to sto jeste

Pogledaj gde su zavrsili drugi Unix sistemi koji su i imali i "centar za odlucivanje" i koji su bili razvijani iza zatvorenih vrata kao proprietary softver

Dok su oni "odlucivali iz centra" linux(a bogami i BSD)je ih je glatko pobrisao sve u skoro svim apsketima trzista i nametnuo se kao najpopularniji unixoid i jedina koliko takva konkurencija MS-u i na polju desktopa(pored MacOS-a)

Verovatno zato sto je kupusara

Salim se-GPL je jedan od vaznijih razloga

 

za to vreme windows melje napred, alati za RAD nikad bolji, treba ti mesec dana da na win platformi razvijes program koji bi pod linuxom pisao skoro "odozdo" troseci silno vreme, itd, itd...

 

U da Vista je prava revolucija,prosto melje-izasala je evo ima skoro godinu dana iz mocnog i superiornog MS-a i pola stvari i drajvera jos ne radi kako treba nego se ceka par SP-ova da bi OS radio kako treba-nek sednu pa nek za mesec dan koliko si rekao,napisu zakrpe

Ja sam,pak,mislio da je samo linux poluproizvod

 

@Deru Uzala

 

Ti si sef

[Dersu Uzala]

Ako smem, usudio bih se nadovezati na citavu paradigmu sledecim...

 

Ako apstrakujemo cisto akademsko gikovsko inzenjersku raspravu o internom dizajnu nekog datog OS-a, za sta ovde niti imamo vremena niti resursa (postoje volumi tehnickih knjiga o tome, mogu da izlistam par zainteresovanima), generalno merilo uspeha i 'ispravnosti' nekog OS-a je primarno izbor i podrska razvojnih alata za isti.

 

Ne, nisu u pitanju kompajleri, linkeri drn zvrc. Oni se portuju od platforme do platforme i mogu da uzmem C++ GNU kompajler i napisem Win .NET program ili MS C++ kompajler i napisem program za Linux (na Intelu naravno).

 

Uprosceno, to zvuci ovako. Zove te neka firma (recimo industrija mesnih proizvoda ) i kazu direktori oko okruglog stola, treba nam nova aplikacija koja centralizuje sve moguce informacije i rabote sirom nase organizacije zarad bolje menadzovanja poslovnog procesa i veceg profita nasih investitora tj. share holdera. Bacamo puno mesa, kasne isporuke, kontrola kvaliteta opada, radnici preoptereceni, nemamo lagan centralni uvid u beneficije i performanse nasih zaposlenih, a i kad imamo nista ti mi ne razumemo te cifre, moze li to jednostavnije, grafikoni i to. Prevozioci (posto recimo nemamo svoju flotu) nas karaju sa ciframa a mi nemamo blage veze da li oni pice preko Male Krsne ili Velike Mostanice i ugrade extra kilometrazu vamo namo. Kapiras vec.

 

Onda ti lepo krenes autostopama, autonogama od jednog do drugog odeljenja i havarija.

 

Ovi iz HR (Human Resources, zaboravih kako se to kod nas zove) imaju recimo SAP ili JD Edwards ili Peoplesoft HRIS softverski sistem i ne jebu iznenadjenja. To im je sto ime je, trenirali 5 godina i nece da menjaju ista. Naravno, taj njihov softver , onako kako je implementiran, ne komunicira ni sa jednim drugim (nije da ne moze, ali treba znati). Aj' dobro.

 

Odes do racunovodstva, oni tamo koriste neki MAS90 ili MS Dynamics ili Great Plains ili Peachtree ili Solomon ili neki peti racunovodstveni paket. O, da ne komunicira ni to sa bilo cim drugim, nego stampaj bato izvestaje pa lepo uz kaficu citaj.

 

Nista zato, odes do odelenja za planiranje, ovi jopet neki Lotus Notes i ni da cuju za neku izmenu.

 

Menadzment ko Menadzment, hoce neke Powerpoint prezentacije automatizovane, Excel spreadsheets, znaju da koriste i Outlook i Word recimo.

 

Aj' dobro i to cemo nekako.

 

Zoves fabriku (gde se u stvari desava akcija, dovlace krave, odvlace stejkovi i sve usput) a oni su brate od '78 na nekom IBM ili HP mainframe-u. Ono, podaci su na magnetnim trakama, o Mojsije.

 

Zoves autoprevoznika i oni kao imaju neki GPS sistem kao i sistem za dispecovanje poziva i isporuka. Proprietory. Znaci ne radi ni na cemu i ni sa cim drugim sem sa samim sbobom (ovo mi i nije neka jezicka konstrukcija).

 

Aj' sad da vidimo taj Solaris i njegove alate, Linux ili OSX. Ne biva. Ne biva zato sto ili ne postoje softverski paketi za razvoj, takozvane 3rd party libraries ili SDKs ili sta bilo, za X-platform upotrebu tih razmera. Ako i mozes da nadjes recimo neki 'konektor' za Lotus Notes, nema recimo za HP-3000 Ili IBM AS-400, koji recimo koriste DB-2 bazu podataka. Ili ne mozes da integrises taj GPS i dispecing sistem. Ili nema konektor ka MS Office-u. Bezbroj varijanti. E, za MS Windows ne da ima, nego uvek ima vise opcija. I zato Windows NEPRIKOSNOVENO vodi kao platforma u poslovnom svetu. Biznis se ne desava preko tamo nekog veb sajta koji mozes da odradis i u FP i sibnes na FreeBSD. Ljudi jednostavno hoce da integrisu kojekakve disparatne sisteme u koje su investirali tijekom proteklih 30 godina i nisu u fazonu da idu ponovo na trening ili da menjaju posao. Moras se svima udovoljiti i onda tu u igru uskace Bill koji je to davno skapirao i tako modelirao svoju firmu da oni nude integraciju sa bilo cim. You name it, they got it. Mislim, ne pisu oni sve te stvari konkretno, ali urgiraju i forsiraju druge firme da to rade za njihovu platformu uz 'sugestiju' da ce se to svima debelo isplatiti.

 

Anyway to bi bilo to. Tu se ogleda prava snaga OS-a, i stvari su zato tu gde jesu. A kad bude zatrebao zettabyte storage, MS ce ga ubaci za metar-dva dana i pice dalje.

 

 

 

 

[Dersu Uzala]

Ti si sef

 

Nisam, ja mu dodjem savetnik da ne kazem 'po naski' consultant. Mene mesare zovu da konsultuju 'when shit hits the fan'. Ne samo to, nego zasucem rukave sednem i arhitektujem a bogami i kodiram, dasta. Tranziram po potrebi. Sta god treba, di treba.

 

Nego, u pravu si, vecinu web, mail i 'ostalih' servera cini LAMP kombinacija ovih dana. Medjutim, to nisu preterano moTjne aplikacije na tim serverima. Naravno uz znanje i trud, moguce je i sa LAMP-om napraviti sjajnu aplikaciju, nema sta. I to je i neki novi talas, klinci po zapadu vole taj LAMP vise nego leba da jedu. Zasto, ne znam. Zato sto je novo i cool. Zato sto se brze i lakse nauci. Zato sto nema po par hiljada novih API funkcija svake godine, i jedno 200-300 'deprecated'.

 

Medjutim! Najveci i najmocniji (najkompleksniji sa najvise funkcionalnosti) sajtovi po pravilu nisu pisani u LAMP-u. Iz vise razloga. Ti poslovi se ne daju klincima, a klinci mahom ne znaju 'tradicionalne' alatljike. Matorci ili ako hoces tradicionalisti, stare kuke, platile svoje skolovanje, pa jos 10 somica dolarjev odozgo investirale u kojekak'e MS certifikacije, nema se vremena za 'dizanje' LAMP-a. A i primitivni su to alati, misle se stare kuke. Mislim, 10 godina koristis stored procedures za neku transakcionu logiku u dejta lejeru, imas i neke fine biblioteke koje si sam napisao ili pokupio diljem sveta, uredno ANSI SQL-92 komplajant. Kad ono, MySQL ne podrzava SPs. WTF?!? (Prim. Uzala, moguce da su u medjuvremenu resili da ih implementiraju, govorkalo se, poslednji put sam petljao sa tim cudovistem 2004). I tako redom.

 

VratJamo se na prethodnu pricu, sta se desava kad treba da mi bude taj sajt neki front end za prethodno opevanu mesaru. Kao, narucis bogati stejkove online (ima, legendarni Omaha Steaks). Al' ne ono, jedna porudzbina dnevno, nego desetine hiljada narudzbi dnevno. Da ne pricam da si neka banka ili kreditna institucija. Nema tu bato Linux, ni FreeBSD, ni OSX, nego samo mainframes (AIX, VMS, MPE), pomalo Solaris i Windows brate. Zasto? Pa zato brate sto, kako rekoh, treba obavestiti one u fabrici da ti naseku par kila, ove u racunovodstvu da ti naplate, ove sto prevoze da ti doture, i menadzment da vidi sve to na nekom cool grafikonu da ne kazem interaktivnom 'dash-boardu'.

 

P.S. Stvarno me jednom angazovala mesara i to druga-treca najveca na Zapadnoj Obali. Otis'o, snimio situaciju i pobeg'o. No, prethodno opisan model (haosa) mi se desavao sa ostalim klijentima.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Dersu Uzala

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

@Dersu Uzala

 

Kakav steta sto Open VMS ne postoji za x86 arhitekturu-bas bi voleo da probam taj OS

Ovako sam osudjen samo na Solaris

Inace kada sam mislio na sef-mislio sam na to da znas sve

Skoro sve doduse-niko ne zna sve

[Dersu Uzala]

@Dersu Uzala

 

Kakav steta sto Open VMS ne postoji za x86 arhitekturu-bas bi voleo da probam taj OS

Ovako sam osudjen samo na Solaris

 

 

Al' postoji za IA64. To ce te kostati par hiljadarki eXtra u startu, knock yourself out . Ne znam zasto bi bas taj voleo da probas, obzirom da je jedan od praotaca Open VMS-a (u stvari originalnog VAX/VMS-a) baja po imenu Dave Cutler. Isti baja koj je jedan od kreatora MS NT-a (a naravno po uzoru na VMS/Open VMS). Inace taj isti baja je bio i lider na W2K programu i NT DecAlpha portu (e sto sam voleo te 64-bitne masine pre 10 godina, to je bilo napravo, o Mojsije). Uzgred, nijesam komentarisao ranije, one fore o W2K timu naspram XP timu su cista nebuloza. Postoje u MS-u product i project manageri, ali inzenjeri cesto rade na dva ili vise projekta istovremeno ili skacu iz jednog tima u drugi. Cisto zbog implikacija, neko je implicirao da su kao W2K radili Win98 inzenjeri a XP su radili NT inzenjeri. Nebuloza. W2K je anyway 'interno' NT 5.0 kao sto je XP NT 5.1.

 

 

Quick Edit, sto bi rekli: Cisto kao zanimaciju (ali jezivu) uzmi procitaj 'Barbarians Led by Bill Gates: Microsoft From The Inside: How The World's Richest Corporation Wields Its Power '. Tip i riba su radili u MS-u, iskesirali se i otisli (bar frajer, zaboravio sam za ribu, njena keva je u stvari Billova neka sekretarica za stampu) i onda ispljuvali onako junacki MS. Ali ima jaaako zanimljivih stvari. Fucking hilarious. Isto preporucam 'The next big thing' ili tako nekako o ovom liku iz SGI/Netscape/WebMD zaboravih mu ime. Jim something. Clark. Mozda nisam bas nabo naziv ove druge knjige, ima par godina kako je negde zagubih.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Dersu Uzala

[RedOrange981]

vidim da ste se bas raspricali a meni bas zao sto ne mogu da dodjem do te knjige jer vidim ne kosta puno a ne kupujem preko neta...

[Dersu Uzala]

Koje knjige, od gore navedenih? Uvek mos' se nadje eBook verzija, tamo negde u Matrixu.

 

Inace jod jedna stvar vezana za LAMP development koja bode oci, ovoga puta koncentrisana na 'A' a ne na 'M'. Problem sa Apache serverom je sto nema podrsku za eXterne eXtenzije, bar koliko ja znam, pogotovu u non-Windows okruzenju. Znaci nesto tipa ISAPI na IIS/Windows. Mozda gresim? Znam da Apache Windows verzija (ima i toga, o Mojsije) podrzava ISAPI extenzije ali sa nekoliko limitacija od kojih je dilbrejker odsustvo podrske za ISAPI filtere. Velika nezgodacija. Obzirom da su i neke popularne non-Microsoft aplikacije na Windows/IIS implementirane kao ISAPI extenzije (ColdFusion, Perl, PHP), zanima me kako ta rabota sljaka/je implementirana na Linuxu recimo (ipak pricamo o LAMP-u, ne).

 

 

Za one koji nisu verzirani u materiju, ISAPI extenzije (aplikacije) i filteri (sto su jopet aplikacije, sve se trpa u famozni dll format na Windoze) su majka Mara kad je u pitanju kastomizacija IIS-a za veeeeeeeeelike sajtove, tj. one sa suludim prometom, pri cemu performanse i sigurnost imaju premiju nad svim ostalim (citaj, development time, jerbo, it's a pain in the arse to develop one).

 

Ja sum prosle pretprosle godine radio za www.pcnalert.com firmo koji koriste IIS/ISAPI aplikacijo i filtere. Sve je bilo odradjeno u MS VC++/ATL Server kombinaciji. Spicili smo u stvari svoj web server koji formalno radi pod IIS instalacijom ali ga uredno zaobidje every single time. Filteri diluju sa hendlovanjem zahteva i autentikacijom, cleanup i odrzavanje sesije i te fore, a aplikacija(e) u stvari rade posao. Frajeri imaju u (SQL Server) bazi podataka sto i nesto miliona rekorda samo u part inventory tabeli. To su sve delovi koji se globalno koriste u elektronskoj industriji sirom sveta, jel' da. U cemu je fora? Ne samo da to treba katalogizirati i brzo pretrazivati (reda velicine nekoliko sekundi) po zahtevu, vec ti isti delovi imaju svoji Product Change Notification (otuda ono PCN u PCNAlert). To znaci da ako sam ja JVC i hocu da pravim neki novi jebitacni DVD rekorder recimo, moji inzenjeri to dizajniraju, al' sad ne lezi vraze, treba to i proizvesti u nekoj kolicini (milioni komada). Onda ovi moji inzenjeri kad to dizajniraju (sa sve elektronskim dijagramom jel'da) predaju to inzenjeru koji radi BOM (Bill of Materials) i onda ovaj baja pregleda celu lista delova i uporedi sa PCNAlert ili nekom drugom firmom koja se bavi istim poslom. Zasto? Zato sto mos' se desi da je dizajn inzenjer ubacio tamo neki National Semiconductor optocoupler OPC-123456XYZ a ovi iz NS (National Semiconductor that is, ne Novi Sad) poslali pre dva meseca izvestaj (Product Change Notification jel'da) da ce taj biti discontinued alii ima neki novi kompatAbilan OPC-654321ZYX, nista se vi ne brin'te. Ili na primer, fabrika koja ih proizvodi premestena tamo i tamo pa sad ti racunaj kolka je cena nove isporuke apropo geografske lokacije (ne nije vise na Tajvanu, sad je u Singapuru 'dil vit it'). Ili kao, eeee nema vise olova u fabrikaciji chipa, tako da je kosher, moste sad i ovaj da narucite. Znaci, svaki deo (od tih sto i kusur miliona) ima desetine i/ili stotine notifikacija tokom godina, u toku svog 'zivota' (iliti Full Product Lifecycle, sto bi rek'o Svabo).

 

Vi me pratite?

 

E sad, pazi ovamo, nista to nije nesto pametan softver. Nego treba pretraziti milijardu kombinacija (bukvalno ) u roku od par sekundi, a ovaj baja, klijent iz JVC-a, BOM inzenjer, tapka prsticima. No nije to sve. Softver i validira dizajn u smislu upotrebljivosti tih komponenti. Znaci ne samo da izbaci kojekakve liste, vec i neke alarme, ima neku decision making logiku koja alarmira BOM frajera da to nece proci iz tog i tog razloga. Ne samo to, vec i alarmira korisnike ako se nesto desi nepredvidjeno u buducnosti (otuda ono Alert u PCNAlert). Znaci softver te nadje u ofisu, na emailu, na cellu, na PDA-ju, u klonji, u podrumu, u krevetu (sa deckom ili devojcicom, po izboru) i urla na sav glas da je doslo do problema u Indoneziji, jutros.

 

Elem, u pitanju nije toliko hitova (desetine hiljada dnevno, svako ko moz' da vam padne napamet je na tom sistemu, pocev od proizvodjaca komponenti, koji serviraju te podatke, pa do klijenta koji konzumiraju...neki put su iste firme u pitanju, razlicita odeljenja, znaci Hitachi pravi i komponente ali pravi i DVD uredjaje, capisce). Problem je sto je svaki hit mega payload heavy. Stoga, ISAPI baby. C++/ATL/MSSQL i da vidis kako pici.

 

E, da. Kapiram da nisam sad tu nesto previse pojasnio u cemu je ISAPI forca u svemu tome. Performanse (i custom security, non ASP/ASP.NET/IIS driven) su u pitanju. Sednes, brate, metnes C++ u krilo i pici. Mesto ovih skriptovanih jezika - binarija, 'pedal to da metal'. Pri tome ta ISAPI C++ aplikacija pici u istom adresnom prostoru kao i IIS, znaci nema inter-procesnih poziva, koristeci famozni 'marshalling' (sheriff-ovanje). Sheriffovanje je pizdarija kad zoves funkciju (ili strukturu, klasu) u drugom adresnom prostoru pa joj, non stop racunaj bazu, push on stack, racunaj offset, push on stack, do the dirty work {here}, pop offset off the stack, pop base off the stack, release resource (zovi destruktor jel'da, nema tu garbage collection, o Mojsije). Obe strane (procesa) rade isti posao. Traje. Sporo, jebo on mater svo-ju.

 

Nego, uzgred, carevi sad prave i IIS u .NET-u. Managed code, huh. Davno je proslo vreme pravih programera, sad sve neki 'Quiche eaters'.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Dersu Uzala

[Dersu Uzala]

Mala sala, ovo sam vec postovao davno (link, doduse). Verovatno svi vec znate napamet, no nije naodmet. Kultni materijal .

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'Real Programmers Don't Eat Quiche'

-----------------------------------------

 

Back in the good old days -- the "Golden Era" of computers, it was easy to separate the men from the boys (sometimes called "Real Men" and "Quiche Eaters" in the literature). During this period, the Real Men were the ones that understood computer programming, and the Quiche Eaters were the ones that didn't. A real computer programmer said things like "DO 10 I=1,10" and "ABEND" (they actually talked in capital letters, you understand), and the rest of the world said things like "computers are too complicated for me" and "I can't relate to computers -- they're so impersonal". (A previous work points out that Real Men don't "relate" to anything, and aren't afraid of being impersonal.)

But, as usual, times change. We are faced today with a world in which little old ladies can get computerized microwave ovens, 12 year old kids can blow Real Men out of the water playing Asteroids and Pac-Man, and anyone can buy and even understand their very own Personal Computer. The Real Programmer is in danger of becoming extinct, of being replaced by high-school students with TRASH-80s!

 

There is a clear need to point out the differences between the typical high-school junior Pac-Man player and a Real Programmer. Understanding these differences will give these kids something to aspire to -- a role model, a Father Figure. It will also help employers of Real Programmers to realize why it would be a mistake to replace the Real Programmers on their staff with 12 year old Pac-Man players (at a considerable salary savings).

 

 

LANGUAGES

The easiest way to tell a Real Programmer from the crowd is by the programming language he (or she) uses. Real Programmers use FORTRAN. Quiche Eaters use PASCAL. Nicklaus Wirth, the designer of PASCAL, was once asked, "How do you pronounce your name?". He replied "You can either call me by name, pronouncing it 'Veert', or call me by value, 'Worth'." One can tell immediately from this comment that Nicklaus Wirth is a Quiche Eater. The only parameter passing mechanism endorsed by Real Programmers is call-by-value-return, as implemented in the IBM/370 FORTRAN G and H compilers. Real programmers don't need abstract concepts to get their jobs done: they are perfectly happy with a keypunch, a FORTRAN IV compiler, and a beer .

 

Real Programmers do List Processing in FORTRAN.

 

Real Programmers do String Manipulation in FORTRAN.

 

Real Programmers do Accounting (if they do it at all) in FORTRAN.

 

Real Programmers do Artificial Intelligence programs in FORTRAN.

 

If you can't do it in FORTRAN, do it in assembly language. If you can't do it in assembly language, it isn't worth doing .

 

 

STRUCTURED PROGRAMMING

Computer science academicians have gotten into the "structured programming" rut over the past several years. They claim that programs are more easily understood if the programmer uses some special language constructs and techniques. They don't all agree on exactly which constructs, of course, and the examples they use to show their particular point of view invariably fit on a single page of some obscure journal or another -- clearly not enough of an example to convince anyone. When I got out of school, I thought I was the best programmer in the world. I could write an unbeatable tic-tac-toe program, use five different computer languages, and create 1000 line programs that WORKED. (Really!) Then I got out into the Real World. My first task in the Real World was to read and understand a 200,000 line FORTRAN program, then speed it up by a factor of two. Any Real Programmer will tell you that all the Structured Coding in the world won't help you solve a problem like that -- it takes actual talent. Some quick observations on Real Programmers and Structured Programming:

 

Real Programmers aren't afraid to use GOTOs.

 

Real Programmers can write five page long DO loops without getting confused.

 

Real Programmers enjoy Arithmetic IF statements because they make the code more interesting.

 

Real Programmers write self-modifying code, especially if it saves them 20 nanoseconds in the middle of a tight loop.

 

Real Programmers don't write applications programs. They program right down on the bare metal. Applications programming is for the dullards who can't do systems programming.

 

Real Programmers don't write specs. Users should be grateful for whatever they get: they are lucky to get any programs at all.

 

Real Programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand and harder to modify.

 

Real Programmers don't document. Documentation is for simpletons who can't read listings or the object code from the dump.

 

Real Programmers don't draw flowcharts. Flowcharts are the illiterate's form of documentation. Cavemen drew flowcharts; look at how much good it did for them.

 

Real Programmers don't read manuals. Reliance on a reference manual is the hallmark of the novice and the coward.

 

Since FORTRAN doesn't have a structured IF, REPEAT ... UNTIL, or CASE statement, Real Programmers don't have to worry about not using them. Besides, they can be simulated when necessary using assigned GOTOs.

 

Data structures have also gotten a lot of press lately. Abstract Data Types, Structures, Pointers, Lists, and Strings have become popular in certain circles. Wirth (the above-mentioned Quiche Eater) actually wrote an entire book contending that you could write a program based on data structures, instead of the other way around. As all Real Programmers know, the only useful data structure is the array. Strings, lists, structures, sets -- these are all special cases of arrays and and can be treated that way just as easily without messing up your programing language with all sorts of complications. The worst thing about fancy data types is that you have to declare them, and Real Programming Languages, as we all know, have implicit typing based on the first letter of the (six character) variable name.

 

 

OPERATING SYSTEMS

What kind of operating system is used by a Real Programmer? CP/M? God forbid -- CP/M, after all, is basically a toy operating system. Even little old ladies and grade school students can understand and use CP/M.

Unix is a lot more complicated of course -- the typical Unix hacker never can remember what the PRINT command is called this week -- but when it gets right down to it, Unix is a glorified video game. People don't do Serious Work on Unix systems: they send jokes around the world on USENET and write adventure games and research papers.

 

No, your Real Programmer uses OS/370. A good programmer can find and understand the description of the IJK305I error he just got in his JCL manual. A great programmer can write JCL without referring to the manual at all. A truly outstanding programmer can find bugs buried in a 6 megabyte core dump without using a hex calculator. (I have actually seen this done.)

 

OS/370 is a truly remarkable operating system. It's possible to destroy days of work with a single misplaced space, so alertness in the programming staff is encouraged. The best way to approach the system is through a keypunch. Some people claim there is a Time Sharing system that runs on OS/370, but after careful study I have come to the conclusion that they are mistaken.

 

 

PROGRAMMING TOOLS

What kind of tools does a Real Programmer use? In theory, a Real Programmer could run his programs by keying them into the front panel of the computer. Back in the days when computers had front panels, this was actually done occasionally. Your typical Real Programmer knew the entire bootstrap loader by memory in hex, and toggled it in whenever it got destroyed by his program. (Back then, memory was memory -- it didn't go away when the power went off. Today, memory either forgets things when you don't want it to, or remembers things long after they're better forgotten.) Legend has it that Seymour Cray, inventor of the Cray I supercomputer and most of Control Data's computers, actually toggled the first operating system for the CDC7600 in on the front panel from memory when it was first powered on. Seymour, needless to say, is a Real Programmer.

One of my favorite Real Programmers was a systems programmer for Texas Instruments. One day, he got a long distance call from a user whose system had crashed in the middle of some important work. Jim was able to repair the damage over the phone, getting the user to toggle in disk I/O instructions at the front panel, repairing system tables in hex, reading register contents back over the phone. The moral of this story: while a Real Programmer usually includes a keypunch and lineprinter in his toolkit, he can get along with just a front panel and a telephone in emergencies.

 

In some companies, text editing no longer consists of ten engineers standing in line to use an 029 keypunch. In fact, the building I work in doesn't contain a single keypunch. The Real Programmer in this situation has to do his work with a text editor program. Most systems supply several text editors to select from, and the Real Programmer must be careful to pick one that reflects his personal style. Many people believe that the best text editors in the world were written at Xerox Palo Alto Research Center for use on their Alto and Dorado computers. Unfortunately, no Real Programmer would ever use a computer whose operating system is called SmallTalk, and would certainly not talk to the computer with a mouse.

 

Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems. EMACS and VI are probably the most well known of this class of editors. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider "what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in text editors as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. TECO, to be precise.

 

It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine.

 

For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a program that is close to working. They find it much easier to just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so well that many working programs on IBM systems bear no relation to the original FORTRAN code. In many cases, the original source code is no longer available. When it comes time to fix a program like this, no manager would even think of sending anything less than a Real Programmer to do the job -- no Quiche Eating structured programmer would even know where to start. This is called "job security".

 

Some programming tools NOT used by Real Programmers:

 

 

FORTRAN preprocessors like MORTRAN and RATFOR. The Cuisinarts of programming -- great for making Quiche. See comments above on structured programming.

 

Source language debuggers. Real Programmers can read core dumps.

 

Compilers with array bounds checking. They stifle creativity, destroy most of the interesting uses for EQUIVALENCE, and make it impossible to modify the operating system code with negative subscripts. Worst of all, bounds checking is inefficient.

 

Source code maintainance systems. A Real Programmer keeps his code locked up in a card file, because it implies that its owner cannot leave his important programs unguarded.

 

 

THE REAL PROGRAMMER AT WORK

Where does the typical Real Programmer work? What kind of programs are worthy of the efforts of so talented an individual? You can be sure that no real Programmer would be caught dead writing accounts-receivable programs in COBOL, or sorting mailing lists for People magazine. A Real Programmer wants tasks of earth-shaking importance (literally!):

 

Real Programmers work for Los Alamos National Laboratory, writing atomic bomb simulations to run on Cray I supercomputers.

 

Real Programmers work for the National Security Agency, decoding Russian transmissions.

 

It was largely due to the efforts of thousands of Real Programmers working for NASA that our boys got to the moon and back before the cosmonauts.

 

The computers in the Space Shuttle were programmed by Real Programmers.

 

Real Programmers are at work for Boeing designing the operating systems for cruise missiles.

 

Some of the most awesome Real Programmers of all work at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Many of them know the entire operating system of the Pioneer and Voyager spacecraft by heart. With a combination of large ground-based FORTRAN programs and small spacecraft-based assembly language programs, they can to do incredible feats of navigation and improvisation, such as hitting ten-kilometer wide windows at Saturn after six years in space, and repairing or bypassing damaged sensor platforms, radios, and batteries. Allegedly, one Real Programmer managed to tuck a pattern-matching program into a few hundred bytes of unused memory in a Voyager spacecraft that searched for, located, and photographed a new moon of Jupiter.

 

One plan for the upcoming Galileo spacecraft mission is to use a gravity assist trajectory past Mars on the way to Jupiter. This trajectory passes within 80 +/- 3 kilometers of the surface of Mars. Nobody is going to trust a PASCAL program (or PASCAL programmer) for navigation to these tolerances.

 

As you can tell, many of the world's Real Programmers work for the U.S. Government, mainly the Defense Department. This is as it should be. Recently, however, a black cloud has formed on the Real Programmer horizon.

 

It seems that some highly placed Quiche Eaters at the Defense Department decided that all Defense programs should be written in some grand unified language called "ADA" (registered trademark, DoD). For a while, it seemed that ADA was destined to become a language that went against all the precepts of Real Programming -- a language with structure, a language with data types, strong typing, and semicolons. In short, a language designed to cripple the creativity of the typical Real Programmer. Fortunately, the language adopted by DoD has enough interesting features to make it approachable: it's incredibly complex, includes methods for messing with the operating system and rearranging memory, and Edsgar Dijkstra doesn't like it (Dijkstra, as I'm sure you know, was the author of "GoTos Considered Harmful" -- a landmark work in programming methodology, applauded by Pascal Programmers and Quiche Eaters alike). Besides, the determined Real Programmer can write FORTRAN programs in any language .

 

The real programmer might compromise his principles and work on something slightly more trivial than the destruction of life as we know it, providing there's enough money in it. There are several Real Programmers building video games at Atari, for example. (But not playing them. A Real Programmer knows how to beat the machine every time: no challange in that.) Everyone working at LucasFilm is a Real Programmer. (It would be crazy to turn down the money of 50 million Star Wars fans.) The proportion of Real Programmers in Computer Graphics is somewhat lower than the norm, mostly because nobody has found a use for Computer Graphics yet. On the other hand, all Computer Graphics is done in FORTRAN, so there are a fair number people doing Graphics in order to avoid having to write COBOL programs.

 

 

THE REAL PROGRAMMER AT PLAY

Generally, the Real Programmer plays the same way he works -- with computers. He is constantly amazed that his employer actually pays him to do what he would be doing for fun anyway, although he is careful not to express this opinion out loud. Occasionally, the Real Programmer does step out of the office for a breath of fresh air and a beer or two. Some tips on recognizing real programmers away from the computer room:

 

At a party, the Real Programmers are the ones in the corner talking about operating system security and how to get around it.

 

At a football game, the Real Programmer is the one comparing the plays against his simulations printed on 11 by 14 fanfold paper.

 

At the beach, the Real Programmer is the one drawing hexdump in the sand.

 

A Real Programmer goes to a disco to watch the light show.

 

At a funeral, the Real Programmer is the one saying "Poor George. And he almost had the sort routine working before the coronary."

 

In a grocery store, the Real Programmer is the one who insists on running the cans past the laser checkout scanner himself, because he never could trust keypunch operators to get it right the first time.

 

 

THE REAL PROGRAMMER'S NATURAL HABITAT

What sort of environment does the Real Programmer function best in? This is an important question for the managers of Real Programmers. Considering the amount of money it costs to keep one on the staff, it's best to put him (or her) in an environment where he can get his work done.

The typical Real Programmer lives in front of a computer terminal. Surrounding this terminal are:

 

 

Listings of all programs the Real Programmer has ever worked on, piled in roughly chronological order on every flat surface in the office.

 

Some half-dozen or so partly filled cups of cold coffee. Occasionally, there will be cigarette butts floating in the coffee. In some cases, the cups will contain Orange Crush.

 

Unless he is very good, there will be copies of the OS JCL manual and the Principles of Operation open to some particularly interesting pages.

 

Taped to the wall is a line-printer Snoopy calender for the year 1969.

 

Strewn about the floor are several wrappers for peanut butter filled cheese bars (the type that are made stale at the bakery so they can't get any worse while waiting in the vending machine).

 

Hiding in the top left-hand drawer of the desk is a stash of double stuff Oreos for special occasions.

 

Underneath the Oreos is a flow-charting template, left there by the previous occupant of the office. (Real Programmers write programs, not documentation. Leave that to the maintainence people.)

 

The Real Programmer is capable of working 30, 40, even 50 hours at a stretch, under intense pressure. In fact, he prefers it that way. Bad response time doesn't bother the Real Programmer -- it gives him a chance to catch a little sleep between compiles. If there is not enough schedule pressure on the Real Programmer, he tends to make things more challenging by working on some small but interesting part of the problem for the first nine weeks, then finishing the rest in the last week, in two or three 50-hour marathons. This not only inpresses his manager, who was despairing of ever getting the project done on time, but creates a convenient excuse for not doing the documentation.

 

 

In general:

 

Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any Real Programmers are around at 9:00 am, its because they were up all night.

 

Real Programmers don't wear neckties.

 

Real Programmers don't wear high heeled shoes.

 

Real Programmers arrive at work in time for lunch.

 

A Real Programmer might or might not know his wife's name. He does, however, know the entire ASCII (or EBCDIC) code table.

 

Real Programmers don't know how to cook. Grocery stores aren't often open at 3 a.m., so they survive on Twinkies and coffee.

 

 

THE FUTURE

What of the future? It is a matter of some concern to Real Programmers that the latest generation of computer programmers are not being brought up with the same outlook on life as their elders. Many of them have never seen a computer with a front panel. Hardly anyone graduating from school these days can do hex arithmetic without a calculator. College graduates these days are soft -- protected from the realities of programming by source level debuggers, text editors that count parentheses, and user friendly operating systems.

 

Worst of all, some of these alleged computer scientists manage to get degrees without ever learning FORTRAN! Are we destined to become an industry of Unix hackers and Pascal programmers?

 

On the contrary. From my experience, I can only report that the future is bright for Real Programmers everywhere. Neither OS/370 nor FORTRAN show any signs of dying out, despite all the efforts of Pascal programmers the world over. Even more subtle tricks, like adding structured coding constructs to FORTRAN have failed. Oh sure, some computer vendors have come out with FORTRAN 77 compilers, but every one of them has a way of converting itself back into a FORTRAN 66 compiler at the drop of an option card -- to compile DO loops like God meant them to be.

 

Even Unix might not be as bad on Real Programmers as it once was. The latest release of Unix has the potential of an operating system worthy of any Real Programmer. It has two different and subtly incompatible user interfaces, an arcane and complicated terminal driver, virtual memory. If you ignore the fact that it's structured, even C programming can be appreciated by the Real Programmer: after all, there's no type checking, variable names are seven (ten? eight?) characters long, and the added bonus of the Pointer data type is thrown in. It's like having the best parts of FORTRAN and assembly language in one place. (Not to mention some of the more creative uses for #define.)

 

No, the future isn't all that bad. Why, in the past few years, the popular press has even commented on the bright new crop of computer nerds and hackers leaving places like Stanford and M.I.T. for the Real World. From all evidence, the spirit of Real Programming lives on in these young men and women. As long as there are ill-defined goals, bizarre bugs, and unrealistic schedules, there will be Real Programmers willing to jump in and Solve The Problem, saving the documentation for later. Long live FORTRAN!

[imaginos]

Jeste,a reci ti meni bato sta pogoni vecinu web,mail i ostalih servera-da vidimo malo cifre

1. rekao si da je linux rasprostranjeniji u serverskoj primeni. ja sam te pitao da li mozes tu tezu da potkrepis nekim podacima. umesto podataka, ti mi odgovaras pitanjem (i prebacujes temu na apache vs. iis).

 

2. nije ti bas neka logika. da bih ti to pokazao postavicu ti pitanje: sta vozi vecina ljudi u srbiji? yugo - dakle, on je superioran u odnosu na BMW-a. dakle, nije pitanje sta neki neprofitni i hobi-sajtovi furaju (LAMP, mada bas me zanima koliko njih fura WAMP ), vec kad govorimo o "superiornosti", tu se ceni sta furaju ozbiljnije firme. narocito je bitna pouzdanost (kao sto cemo videti u nastavku poruke). ;-)

 

Apache,koliko znam oko 60% i to u 99% linux(Apache ima i za Windozu inace)a ima ga i po velikim firmama-sta mislis na kom trzistu zgrcu pare SUSE i RH,a odskora i Ubuntu-enterprise bese?

u "velikim firmama" u kojima sam ja bio - gle cuda - mreza je bilas pod win-om (na apache-ima su bile poverene neke manje bitne webaplikacije i servisi od koji ne zavisi nista esencijalno za firmu). naravno da ima slucajeva kad se linux koristi i sve to stoji, ali daleko od toga da je on nesto dominantan i spektakularno bitan u celoj prici o "serverskom trzistu".

 

Pa upravo na tom polju je linux i najveci konkurent Windows-u

mozemo li da vidimo neke podatke, ili ti to onako, intuitivno. ;-)

 

I naravno da je linux superioran kao serverski OS-za nisku cenu(tacnije nema je)mozes da dobijes pouzdan server koji ce ti sluziti isto kao Win 2003 ako ne i bolje

1. kako je to konketno linux superioran kao serverski OS? moze li neki primer?

 

2. pomenuo si "pouzdanost". da li si cuo za NASDAQ? ukratko, to je najveca berza akcija u SAD (inace, to je prva elektronska berza). i najvaznija stvar: NASDAQ je najveca berza na svetu. sta mislis kakav racunarski sistem stoji iza toga i koliko je tu bitna pouzdanost (ne smem da zamislim troskove i haos koji bi nastali da nesto ne radi kako treba, dakle POUZDANOST je najvaznija. konkretno, u pitanju je bog_te_pita koliko transakcija dnevno (u "spicu saobracaja" po otvaranju berze svakog dana desava se oko 5.000 upita u sekundi). i cik pogodi - NASDAQ ne koristi linux, vec windows servere. ;-)

 

vise o svemu tome mozes procitati ovde, gde izmedju ostalog pise:

 

- “Since we first implemented Windows Server 2003 with IIS 6.0, we have had no reported security incidents. It really is a secure system.”J.P. AtheyVice President of Network and Web Applications

 

...toliko o tome sta je pouzdano.

 

Inace,preporucujem ti da instaliras ekstenziju za FF koja se zove server spy i da pogledas iz prve ruke koliko je zastupljen ISS na www serverima-kada budes posle par dana u moru Apache indijanaca naleteo na tag MS-ISS javi mi se

hmmm.. kako zanimljiva logika. kad bi postojao plugin koji bi mogao da vidi koja baza podataka stoji iza tih sajtova i web aplikacija, osecam da bi jedno 90% bilo MySQL, a da bi na Oracle otpao neki bedni procenat. iz toga mozemo izvuci zakljucak da je MySQL superioran u odnosu na oracle.

 

Toliko o zastupljenosti i trzisnom udelu....

hajde da vidimo sta kazu statistike i podaci na uzorku od oko 140 miliona sajtova, ok?: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html

 

Microsoft continues to increase its web server market share, adding 2.6 million sites this month as apache loses 991K hostnames. As a result, Windows improves its market share by 1.4% to 34.2%, while apache slips by 1.7% to 48.4%. Microsoft's recent gains raise the prospect that Windows may soon challenge apache's leadership position.

 

evo i sta kazu cak i na sajtu linuxWorld

http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=1597515858

 

inace, od pojave .NET 2.0, koji je u poslednje vreme poceo da potiskuje javu, treba racunati na ozbiljno drmanje tla pod nogama ne samo u tom domenu. ;-)

 

 

[Nisko_Se_Mazim]

Super,a ja sam taman zaboravio na celu ovu raspravu

Ovako ne ide-imas sav potreban info u mom profilu pa mi razjasni sve nedoumice na chatu kada budes imao vremena

Inace imas tendeciju da vrsis zamenu teza kad vec primecujes da se ja saltam sa teme na temu-prvo mi trazis da ja kazem sta se najvise koristi na serverima i hoces da ti kazem koliki je market share pa kada ja pomenem Apache(koji je btw jeste kvalitetan prozivod )ti se presaltas na pitanje kvaliteta i odmah Oracle(koji kao sto sam rekao postoji i za linux)u fazonu "svi voze Yuga" a zna se sta je kvalitetnije....

Dakle sada samo treba da upotrebim tvoju logiku i da shodno tome sto je najzastupjenije na trazistu ocenjujem i kvalitet istog

Inace link koji si dao je "this is the html version of the file http://download.microsoft.com/documents/cu...NAL_.doc."

Gosh kakvo iznenadjenje-sa MS sajta je pa shodno tome treba ozbiljno da se postavi pitanje koliko je to tacno s obzirom da doticni i Vistu reklamiraju kao zaokruzeni ultimate proizvod

Inace po tvom grafikonu-Apache je zastupljeniji i to debelo

A kada vec pominjes velike mogule sta ono bese koristi Google za svoje server farme-bese li specijalno modifikovana verzija Ubuntu linux-a

 

http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/showA...cleID=177105867

 

Sta rekose "for internal use"

 

Zamisli Google,bas neozbiljna kompanija

 

A cekaj da vidimo sta koristi NASA za neke svoje "prozivode" osim cluster sistema

 

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4892438264.html

 

http://linux.org.mt/article/space

 

Odlican clanak sa lepim linkovima sa ovog pomalo zaturenog domena(Malta)

 

A znas zasto linux-zato sto mogu slobodno da ga modifikuju kako im je volja bez(debelog)placanja i trazenja dozvole od kojekavih mogula

 

 

P.S. I nadam se da ne mislis na domace "velike firme"

Ali ako mislis-idi raspitaj se malo kod najvecih domacih ISP-ova sta vrte na SVIM svojim serverima-o da,skoro u 90% slucajeva linux,malo BSD i Solaris,a Windows-a nema uopste

Gosh opet nemam link ali guess what-moj drugar radi za Eunet i odrzava i njihove servere i gle cuda deo srevera je na Fedori a drugi deo je na Gentoo-u(filijala za Cacak)

Ma sta oni znaju-Srbija je to

Meni je zaista zanimljiva tendencija pojedinih Windows advokata(ne mislim na nikog posebno)koji se trude iz petnih zila da pobiju neke fakte-ajd kad vec linux nije toliko(tacnije-jos)dobra zamena na desktopu i jos nekim poljima malo da krenemo da diskreditujemo i polja gde pogovora ustvari nema

A taj trend je narocito poceo zadnjih par godina kada je ovima u MS krenuo malo da se drma stolac jer linux-ova popularnost sve vise raste(ne kazem da je drasticno)pa ajd malo da blatimo konkurenciju pricama za malu decu i "nezavisnim" istrazivanjima koja su obicno sponzorisana od strane cika Bilija